Public Bill Committee

[Sir Robert Syms in the Chair]

Robert Syms: I have a few preliminary reminders for  the Committee. Please switch electronic devices to  silent. No food or drink is permitted during sittings of the Committee, except for the water provided. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
We will now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. The selection list for today’s sittings is available in the room. It shows how the selected amendments have been grouped together for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or similar subjects. Please note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order that they are debated; they sometimes appear later than on the final list. The selection grouping shows the order of debates and decisions for each amendment.
A Member who has put their name to a leading amendment in the group is called first. Other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on all or any of the amendments in the group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of the debate on a group of amendments, I will call the Member who moved the leading amendment. Before they sit down, they will need to indicate whether they wish to withdraw or seek a decision on the amendment. If any Member wishes to press any other amendment in the group to a vote, they need to let me know.

Clause 1 - New method for determining fee limit

Matt Western: I beg to move amendment 3, in clause 1, page 2, line 5, at end insert—
“in consultation with relevant higher education sector stakeholders.”
This amendment would ensure that in determining whether the credit-based method or the fixed method is to be used, the Secretary of State will consult relevant higher education sector stakeholders.

Robert Syms: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 5, in clause 1, page 2, line 34, at end insert—
“(3A) In determining
which activity is to be regarded as a ‘credit-differentiated
activity’ under subsection (3), the Secretary
of State must consult the relevant provider, relevant higher education
sector stakeholders, and any other sector stakeholders relevant to the
credit-differentiated activity in
question.”
In determining the nature and extent of “credit-differentiated activity” and the number of credits associated to it, the Secretary of State must consult the provider in question, higher education stakeholders, and other stakeholders to which the credit-differentiated activity relates to, for example, NHS Trusts or other representative bodies.

Matt Western: Thank you, Sir Robert, in advance of this morning’s sitting, and thanks to the Clerks for all their work hitherto.
I thought that the evidence sessions the other day were useful. The contributions of the Government witnesses, as well as those whom we had proposed, were extremely helpful. What we heard consistently was that the previous consultation was healthy, but we did not have the report back until relatively late. Perhaps there could be greater consultation.
The purpose behind the two grouped amendments 3 and 5 is to incorporate more consultation in the Bill and in particular the need for the Minister to consult stakeholders when deciding what method should be used to determine the fee limit. A second expectation to be included would be that the Minister consult the provider in question, higher education stakeholders and other stakeholders relevant to how many credits are attached to the credit-differentiated activity—that is the term used to describe non-traditional modes of teaching, or placement.
I start with amendment 3. The Bill gives the Secretary of State sweeping powers to decide unilaterally what method to apply to courses in determining the fee method, whether the credit-based method or the fixed method. In the evidence sessions, we heard from Professor Press, the Vice-Chancellor of Manchester Metropolitan University, who has done a lot of work in this area. In what was not so much a confession as a revelation, he said that
“the bit I find most difficult to understand is the difference between the credit-based and the fixed-mechanism methods of calculating the fee cap.”––[Official Report, Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Public Bill Committee, 21 March 2023; c. 5, Q4.]
In addition, we also helpfully heard from Julie Charge, the deputy chief executive officer at the University of Salford, about their experience of the Office for Students’ short-course trial, as it was the Office for Students that conducted the trail. We heard that that might have been better had it been undertaken by the Department for Education itself. Salford’s experience revealed two significant cohorts of people taking the loan: the 26 to 30-year-olds in one; and the 36 to 40-year-olds in the other. That is valuable data for the Government. I like to think that that will provide behavioural insight into how the opportunity for lifelong learning will apply, because there seems to be a market and a need for such provision among those cohorts. I hope that the Minister will be interested in learning from the trial and implementing it when deciding many of the things that he has the power to do in regulations.
The memorandum from the Department for Education to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee states that the fixed method will be used only
“for courses which do not easily lend themselves to the credit-based system”.
However, the Bill grants sweeping powers to the Secretary of State to decide what method should be used, irrespective of whether the fixed method should be used exceptionally. There is a concern here. If it is decided that the credit-based method should be used, it is important that that does not lead to unintended consequences for providers or learners. The Minister would therefore surely accept that there is a real benefit to sector consultation.
The importance and relevance was underlined by the fact that the Russell Group has expressed its support  for the amendment, as it believes universities should have autonomy on all decisions relating to the types of courses and provision offered, and whether or not to modularise the courses and the associated credit. I expect the Minister might not want to include sector stakeholder consultation in the Bill, but, if he does not, what assurances can he give the sector that, first, there will be an avenue for sector stakeholders to contribute before the Secretary of State decides on the fee limit to be applied? Secondly, universities will have the ability to express an opinion as to what type of courses
“do not easily lend themselves to the credit-based system”,
and the Secretary of State will take that into account in deciding what method to apply.

Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend raises an important point. The consultation that he refers to sets up an opportunity to debate clause 1. For me there were two key concerns that came out of the evidence sessions on Tuesday. The first was whether the policy would lead to a shift from employers having responsibility for their staff’s learning to employees now being expected to take responsibility. The second was whether that would be attractive enough for institutions to take them on, and whether the concerns about the financial stability of the sector had been considered in the Bill. The evidence sessions showed why it is so important that we have a full consultation on the issues.

Matt Western: My hon. Friend is right that we heard quite widely from all the witnesses. Over the last 30 years, there has been a significant fall-off in the provision of adult education and of education or training through employers—we heard that from the CBI and others. There is a real concern about whether the proposal will lead to an individualisation of the responsibility for all training and skills, which would be to the detriment of what is needed for us economically as well as socially. I agree with his point about whether what is being proposed might be a burden in the context of the current education landscape and the financial precarity, which we particularly see in colleges and also in higher education institutions. We will come on to that when we discuss other amendments.
I will come back to the assurances I am seeking from the Ministeron the need for consultation. I spoke of two. The final one I want to raise is that there was seemingly some confusion among the witnesses we heard from on Tuesday. These are heavyweight college leaders, who are widely respected across the sector. I am really seeking assurance from the Minister and his team that he himself will reassure the sector on the difference between the two fee limit methods.
I will turn to amendment 5. In the Bill, “credit-differentiated activity” is the term used to describe non-traditional learning activity, such as placements with employers. That is not a term that a lot of people will be familiar with; I am not sure if you, Sir Robert, or others would have been familiar with it ahead of getting involved with this legislation. An obvious example is in hospitals, where placements are a vital part of nursing degrees and other medicine-related courses.
Providers may wish to define future courses with a placement element to them or that include engagement with employers. That is to be welcomed, of course; it   is a vital part of the learning experience—the direct, practical experience—that a person can have by being in that place of work and learning very much on the job alongside the theory they may have learned in the classroom. That is a vital part of their training—understanding not just the theory but how that relates in practice to the workspace.
The Bill currently allows the Secretary of State to set down in the regulations the description of the credit-differentiated activity to be undertaken and make provision about the number of credits attached to that type of activity. Given the vast range of areas that such activity could fall in and the number of sectors and bodies that could and, I believe, should be engaged—national health service trusts, other sector-representative bodies involved in course provision and qualification bodies—would it not make sense to ensure they are consulted before the Secretary of State puts a number of credits on the activity?
The amendment also includes consultation with the provider, which is important. Let us take the worst-case scenario. Say that a provider allows a student to undergo a placement during a course year: the Secretary of State provides for that activity to be 20 credits—i.e. 200 hours —but say, in reality, the placement is much more onerous, and the university envisaged that the student would spend 300 hours on placement, or 37.5 hours for eight weeks. That example illustrates that there would be a clear discrepancy. What mechanisms are in place in the legislation to prevent that happening? Would consultation with the provider not be sensible?
We also heard from Simon Ashworth of the Association of Employment and Learning Providers that
“awareness of the LLE is still underdeveloped.”––[Official Report, Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Public Bill Committee, 21 March 2023; c. 39, Q78.]
That is backed up by the CBI’s education and skills survey 2022. We heard from Matthew Percival about that, and he explained that the survey revealed that four in five respondents were totally unaware of the plans to introduce the lifelong loan entitlement. We also heard examples on Tuesday of how previous Government initiatives in the skills space have massively underperformed the expectations of Government. I do not mean to criticise that, because some of the initiatives have been very positive,but it demonstrates how difficult it is to get some of those new initiatives up, running and accepted by institutions, and understood by employers and learners. We have seen that with T-levels and accelerated degrees.

Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend is more generous than I am; he touches on one of the crucial parts of this entire debate. For the measures to have the force that we all hope for, providers have to be able to afford to run the courses, and, in the context of independent providers, to do so profitably. The Government have been very good at allotting budgets for projects that never get taken on and never deliver the numbers originally hoped for. There is every prospect, given the evidence that we heard this week, that this measure could fall into the same trap, if the issues raised by my hon. Friend are not addressed. It behoves the Government to ensure that they not only come up with a good idea but make it work for those who are being asked to deliver it.

Matt Western: My hon. Friend understandably has a different perspective on the sector and he has real expertise. With some of the initiatives—I am thinking of T-levels and how the Government sought to remove BTECs—there has been resistance, and a difference between what the Government and colleges and employers believe worked successfully. The introduction of any new approach brings massive challenges. As the Minister knows, the Opposition are in favour of lifelong learning, but it is important that the delivery of it is successful, and there is not a failure from the start. We are at this stage in the Parliament, and there is a lot of work to be done if the measures are to be successful.
One benefit of consultation is engagement. There has been a desire across the sector to have more engagement with the Government, but it has been made difficult. I welcome the Minister to his place; he is a decent individual with expertise and knowledge about the skills sector. There has been such upheaval and turmoil across the ministerial line-up that I think it has made it very difficult. We are five years on from the 2018 Augar report. There needs to be consistency and stability across the ministerial line-up to deliver some of these ideas.

Andy McDonald: Does my hon. Friend share my perception of the role of the local skills improvement plans in this area? From my own experience, it would appear that there is a degree of frustration in those who are seeking to drive the plans when gaining qualitative information from employers. I wonder whether that is indicative of well-intentioned plans not being thought through thoroughly, and not being coherent, intelligible and effective.

Matt Western: My hon. Friend has a lot of experience as a Member of Parliament for Middlesbrough, and understands how important it is, with economic change and new sectors emerging, that training and skills provision is available and co-ordinated. I worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield on the Skills and Post-16 Education Act 2022; the introduction of local skills improvement plans was seen as a good proposal, but it is about delivery and making it work. It is important to have the right people involved in those plans, who are acting not simply out of self-interest but in the interests of the long-term—10 or 15 years hence. I still believe there is much work to be done on that.
Our amendment would bring all the relevant stakeholders together, simultaneously limiting unintended consequences and engaging the relevant groups with the policy while boosting awareness of the lifelong loan entitlement policy. I think this is a very sensible suggestion, but I guess I would say that.
So, on behalf of the sector, I just ask the Minister to provide some assurances that decisions made under clause 1(4) will not be implemented without sector and representative consultation and approval, and that is what these two amendments seek to ensure.

Toby Perkins: I do not intend to dwell on these two amendments; my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington has forcefully set out their purpose. Regarding the consultation, given what we heard in the evidence session, it is important that the sector is engaged.  There is a real concern that until there is clarity about a new method of funding further education and skills, which we know will be more expensive for providers to provide, although—quite rightly—it will not be any more expensive for learners to learn, there will be a gap there. So, unless someone steps forward, there is a real danger that an excellent opportunity will be created for learners that they will not actually be able to access in their local area.
On the subject of the definition of a credit, it is important to remind the Committee what we heard in the evidence session. My hon. Friend asked:
“Should the Bill have written into it some sort of definition of what a credit is?”
Ellen Thinnesen from Sunderland College responded:
“My personal and professional opinion is that it should. If we are defining fee limits attached to credits, it is really important to communicate to a student what a credit means. Essentially, a student wants to know a number of things. First, how much is this going to cost me? Secondly, what will I have to expend in effort and energy to complete this module? Thirdly, what will I get for that module and those credits from the institution that I am choosing to go to? So transparency about the relationship of credit to fees, and of credit to module content and what is expected within that, is very important.”––[Official Report, Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Public Bill Committee, 21 March 2023; c. 12.]
It was crucial and right that she said that, with her understanding of what motivates learners. It is also important, of course, that future employers understand what those credits mean; other witnesses referred to receiving a handful of certificates, but said that there was no clarity about what those certificates meant.
Alun Francis from Oldham College responded to a question from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw by saying:
“The more important questions will be about the standardisation of the credits…so that learners know what they are getting and paying for. That needs to be absolutely transparent.
It is also important to say that in these technical areas there is a big difference between what learners pay for here and in a traditional degree, because some degrees are positional goods—they are paying for the credential as much as the content—but in these qualifications they are paying for the content. Learners therefore need to be clear that what they are getting is what it says on the tin. The other aspects, I think, we will just get used to.”––[Official Report, Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Public Bill Committee, 21 March 2023; c. 13.]
Those are very powerful voices from the sector speaking in support of my hon. Friend’s amendment and if the Minister is not minded to support it, we will need real clarity for the sector as to how the definition of a credit will be assured if it is not in the Bill.

Robert Halfon: I thank the shadow spokesman, the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington, for tabling his amendment and for his comments on it. He talked about the timing of the consultation and he said that it came out quite late. It came out quite late because we wanted to make sure that we got it right: we were having extensive consultation with the sector and with other stakeholders, as he rightly wants, and we wanted to make sure that we responded carefully. I do not know if he has seen the recent tweet by the vice-chancellor of the Open University, who said that he welcomed the engagement with the Government. There  has been an LLE roundtable with previous Ministers and officials. I attended one such meeting only a few days ago on the LLE.

Matt Western: Will the Minister give way on that point?

Robert Halfon: Yes, of course. I will come on to deal with some of the hon. Member’s remarks.

Matt Western: It would have been really helpful if the Minister had been in post in March last year, because we might have got to this a lot sooner—that is the point I was making. I am sure that the intention was there in the Government, and of course the Augur report was published five years ago, but I have lost count of how many people I have stood opposite here in this past year. Had this Minister been in place, I am sure we would have had this Bill Committee in the autumn of last year.

Robert Halfon: The hon. Member is very kind, as always. I cannot speak for the past; I can just speak for the present and the future. My intention is to get this Bill right, which is why this Bill Committee is so important.
The hon. Member opened by saying that there was some confusion about the fixed-rate method and modules and credits. He mentioned Professor Malcolm Press. Universities UK has strongly welcomed the lifelong loan entitlement; I noted that point on Second Reading.
I will just clarify, for the benefit of the Committee, that the Government intend for all courses offered under the LLE to use the new credit-based system for calculating fee limits. That includes longer programmes, such as three-year degrees, as well as short courses or modules, regardless of whether they are studied on a full-time, part-time or accelerated basis.
There may be some courses that are more suited to annual fee limits than credit-based fee limits, for example postgraduate certificates of education or first degrees in nursing. Where that is the case, the intention is that the Government will set fee limits using a consistent rate of 120 credits per year. That includes for Oxbridge, where there is no credit system for degrees; there will be a default credit system for those universities.
The Government intend to retain the ability to set fee limits using the current yearly fee system as well as the new credit-based system, but would use this ability only by exception. These exceptions will be set out via regulations, using the affirmative procedure.
Let me go through the amendments in a little more detail. They focus on the Government consulting with stakeholders regarding the fee limit method and credit-differentiated activities. We have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders to gather input to inform policy development and believe it is absolutely critical that we continue to engage with stakeholders all the way through. I mentioned the vice-chancellor of the Open University. He said:
“The Lifelong Loan Entitlement... has the potential to enable people at any stage of their working lives to improve their knowledge and skills and drive productivity and growth.”
The Government’s consultation on the lifelong loan entitlement included a question specifically on the issue suggested by amendment 5—whether any courses should   be on the per academic year, or fixed, method of funding. We intend for all courses under the LLE to use the new credit-based method for calculating fee limits.
We understand, following the consultation and engagement with the sector, that there may be some courses that would be more suited to annual fee limits, such as nursing. In those cases, as I have said, the Government will set fee limits using a consistent rate  of 120 credits per year for full-time courses. That will create parity with the current yearly fee system, but via a credit-based mechanism.
On amendment 3, I will provide some additional detail on credit-differentiated activities. A credit-differentiated activity is intended to be a period of study or other activity that has a different fee limit rate to another period of study within the same year—for example, a year containing substantial periods of taught study and time abroad. Credit-differentiated activities make it possible to set fee limits on sandwich placements and overseas study in a more flexible way.
Currently, placements and overseas study have a reduced fee limit rate, but that reduced rate can only be applied to a full year at a time. We are trying to make it possible to fee cap shorter periods of mobility in the year that they actually take place. Where I disagree with the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington is that an explicit requirement to consult on the detail of credit-differentiated activities is not necessary and potentially burdensome.
It is entirely up to providers whether to design courses that contain credit-differentiated activities. Providers can continue to design courses that have just one type of study within each year, and those will not be subject to any of the rules on credit-differentiated activities. I give an assurance that the regulations on fee limits will follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so Parliament will have the opportunity to debate and formally approve them.
The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington asked whether the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to tell providers how many credits there are in CDAs. The Bill does not give the Secretary of State the power to tell providers how many credits they attach to placements, as I have just mentioned, for time abroad or taught study. It is a fair, consistent basis for setting the limits for credits.
To sum up, we cannot support these amendments. Amendment 3 is unnecessary and burdensome, and amendment 5 seeks to require that the Government consult on an issue that they have already consulted on, and will continue to consult on and engage with all the way through.

Toby Perkins: If I have understood correctly, the Minister is effectively saying that what makes up a credit is up to the providers. They can decide what constitutes a credit, 10 credits or whatever else. Given the feedback we heard from Ellen Thinnesen and Mr Francis, and given the reservations we heard from those in the sector that there is a danger this might be burdensome and costly for them, how will the Government ensure that providers will not stretch what is worth 10 credits or a credit? How can we ensure that there is quality within this?

Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Member for his question. As he knows, a credit is a unit of learning time. We are using the standardised system that exists already, but breaking it down into modules. As I said, the maximum will be 120 credits per year. In terms of the modules, there will be a minimum of 30 credits. If providers want to charge for more credits, that is up to them, but the student will not pay for those extra credits that they charge for. We are just breaking down the existing system to ensure that we can introduce modular and flexible learning.

Matt Western: I thank the Minister for his comments. However, we will press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 9.

Question accordingly negatived.

Matt Western: I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert—
“(1A) The definition
of credit must follow sector-recognised
standards.”
This amendment would ensure there is a sector-recognised, standard definition of credit, consistent with the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education (QAA) Higher Education Credit Framework.

Robert Syms: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 9, in clause 1, page 4, line 33, after “course” insert
“as specified in a standardised transcript.”
This amendment would ensure that there is consistency amongst the academic record of students wishing to transfer between providers through a standardised transcript.

Matt Western: The amendments seek to incorporate two elements into the Bill. The first would ensure that the definition of a “credit” is aligned with sector-recognised standards, and the second would ensure that the definition of a “transfer case” includes reference to the need for a standardised transcript. This is particularly important for ensuring consistency and quality.
Let me start with amendment 4. The sector has clearly done a huge amount of work in this space, and we heard from Professor Sue Rigby of Bath Spa University, who was responsible for rewriting the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education’s credit framework alongside Ellen Thinnesen of Sunderland College, who was an advisory member for the development of the QAA’s quality code for higher education. Ellen made it very clear in her evidence that being precise on the face of the Bill about what a credit is would be a really important step. Interestingly, she said that it would provide clarity  about the relationship between credits, fees and module content.As I said in my opening remarks, the concept of a credit—both as a term and as a currency—is alien to the wider public, which is an issue. The public’s understanding about what a T-level is and its value is not well appreciated, which, sadly, may devalue it in the eyes of employers or others. That is why we believe that the definition of credit should be on the face of the Bill.
The term is certainly understood by the sector, with one credit equating to 10 notional hours of learning. The minimum proposed 30-unit course available to a student benefiting from their LLE would therefore equate to 300 hours of notional learning.Without a clear commitment to a sector-recognised definition of credit on the face of the Bill, what is to stop the Government amending the value of a credit without any proper scrutiny? I was pleased to see reference to credit in the explanatory notes, which define one credit as representing 10 hours of notional learning. Elsewhere, this understanding or valuation of a credit is found in Ofqual’s conditions of registration andthe Office for Students’ sector-recognised standards, as well as in the QAA’s higher education credit framework.
I think it is the sector’s definition to own. In not making it clear on the face of the Bill, the inevitable concern is that Ministers may well step in and start amending the value of a credit, which has implications for the fee cap that providers are able to charge.What assurances can the Minister give us that a credit is to be aligned with sector-recognised standards?
Of course, the benefit of our amendment is that it would provide flexibility: should the sector decide to amend its definition of a credit, that would be updated in the Bill. Our amendment would simply enshrine the autonomy of providers against potential interference by the Government, and I think most of us would say that that is a very healthy place to be, irrespective of where we sit in the Chamber. The context is the creeping Government interference that we have seen within the Office for Students, so it is really important that the definition of a credit is transparent and owned by the sector.
On amendment 9, I thank the Minister for publishing the consultation ahead of Report, following cross-party representations on Second Reading from me, the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson). The publication of that report has invariably improved the quality of debate. The amendment is inspired by the Government’s own commitment, in their response, to introduce the requirement for providers to give standardised transcripts to learners on completion of their modules.That is a good thing. During the evidence session, we heard several concerns about how transfer cases would work. Julie Charge, for example, raised concerns about how they would work in practice and who would be the awarding body. That is certainly not clear.
We also heard from Rachel Sandby-Thomas, who explained that in transfer cases the providers involved currently have a good relationship. It is really important for there to be trust and an appreciation of the values and standards of the institution that is transferring out as well as an appraisal of the relative standards. It will take time for providers to build up such relationships when, in theory, students will be able to transfer from any provider to another. That is why the issue is so  important. A standardised academic transcript would give value and credit to the qualifications achieved by a learner.

Andy McDonald: Could I take my hon. Friend back a step to the level of requirement on providers to settle a standardised script? One of my local colleges has got in touch to say that although it welcomes the idea, it understands that there are no plans to make it a firm requirement of higher education providers. Instead, they will be encouraged only to consider standardised transcripts. Does that accord with my hon. Friend’s understanding or is there something stronger in the Bill that we have not seen?

Matt Western: It is interesting to hear the voice of one of my hon. Friend’s local colleges in Middlesborough. The need for standardisation is at the heart of the issue; as I say, where this is working currently there is an existing relationship between education providers—whether colleges or higher education institutions—when it comes to the person who may be transferring out or in and what they will have attained by arriving at the other institution. That is really important.
We have to establish a currency or there will not be trust between the institutions when it comes to taking people on—they might not appreciate the value or standard that the learner may have previously achieved. It will take time for providers to build up these relationships and that is why standardised academic transcripts are important.

Toby Perkins: In the evidence session, we heard the Minister at pains to encourage our witnesses to say that as a result of the new approach there might be greater collaboration between the further and higher education sectors. We all recognise that that would be a good thing, and my hon. Friend and I have seen good examples of that. Does amendment 9 not give the opportunity  for that collaboration to be far more consistent than it currently is? If someone has clarity about what they are getting at every stage, about the transfer and about where the responsibilities lie in the learning, it is much easier for those partnerships to form.

Matt Western: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is important that these relationships form—and they are relationships of trust, really. That is why consistency and a standardised approach are really important to give substance to that trust and relationship.
We also heard from Coventry University, which is very much at the vanguard of modular study. We heard from Dr Norton, who was concerned about how stackability might actually work in practice. She was keen to ensure that credits are widely recognised and that there is a currency across the sector. She suggested that standardised transcripts would provide the absolute clarity and brand recognition—perhaps acceptance—that are needed. I would be grateful if the Minister can explain a bit more about what a standardised transcript looks like, what it could include and, importantly, what value it will hold.

Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his amendments. The standardised transcript, which is important, will be provided at the end of a module. It provides a clear record of the learner’s study in a recognisable format. It is something that courses already have in their existing certificates.
There are already qualifications for large courses, and employers know that. The standardised transcript will be given on the completion of the student’s module. It is intended to be a requirement of the regulations for loan funding purposes, but it does not necessarily need to be referred to in relation to fee limits.
Amendment 4 would require the definition of credit to align with sector-recognised standards. I emphasise that the Government fully understand the importance of that. We have introduced a definition of credit on the face of the Bill in proposed new paragraph 1A, which defines credits as units used to signify the total amount of learning time that a student would ordinarily be expected to spend in order to complete a course or part of a course. That relates to the hon. Gentleman’s question. As he said, it aligns with the definitions held by the Office for Students and Ofqual.
The Bill does not introduce a power further to define credits in regulations. However, regulations will set out that, for a course or module to be treated as credit-bearing, each credit must be equal to 10 learning hours. That mirrors existing sector practice. The Government do not intend to change regulations on the number of learning hours in a credit unless standards in the sector change. Learning hours are, and should continue to be, based on sector-led standards. I can give an assurance that regulations on learning hours will follow the affirmative resolution procedure so that Parliament will always get an opportunity to debate and formally approve any changes to regulations. As such, the amendment is not necessary.
Let me explain that a bit further. If learning hours are put into secondary legislation, rather than primary, providers that use a different number of learning hours per credit will simply have their courses treated as non-credit bearing, rather than being considered in breach of the fee limit rules as a whole. The Office for Students would have the ability to take action against the provider from a quality and standards standpoint if it deems that necessary, but the provider would not face additional consequences for breaching fee limits rules. As I say, regulations on learning hours will have to follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so Parliament will always get the chance to debate and formally approve  any such number of hours before a law is made or changed.
On amendment 9, the Government fully intend to support transcripts for modules of courses. Although we encourage their use as good practice to support students for all level 4 to 6 study, we are not making transcripts mandatory for full courses. That is because modules are a novel concept in terms of designation for student finance, and do not have the fully established standards that exist for full courses. By providing transcripts for modules, the lifelong loan entitlement will enable credit transfer and boost labour market currency, allowing students to make full use of their academic achievements to progress.
Since transcripts are not mandatory for full courses, it would not be appropriate to reference them in primary legislation in the context of both courses and modules. I reiterate that employers know what courses are. Most courses come with a qualification of some kind. For those reasons, the Government will resist the amendments.

Matt Western: I hear what the Minister has said. I would like to believe the point about what might happen with the credit definition, and I appreciate that it is referenced elsewhere, but it would still be healthy to have it defined in the Bill.
On the standardised transcript issue, I certainly understand the problem with what he was describing as a full course as opposed to a module. A full course is understood, because there is a defined quantification and qualification on what has been studied. That is well understood. The issue is that, with modules, it will be much less understood.
The full course may typically be undertaken at or provided by one institution; we are talking about the movement of people over time or place, between institutions. Some standardised transcript would be in everyone’s interests, whether that is the employer, in understanding what someone has attained, the incoming institution, or, most certainly, the learner.
For those reasons, we will push both amendment 4 and amendment 9 to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 9.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: 5, in clause 1, page 2, line 34, at end insert—
“(3A) In determining
which activity is to be regarded as a “credit-differentiated
activity” under subsection (3), the Secretary
of State must consult the relevant provider, relevant higher education
sector stakeholders, and any other sector stakeholders relevant to the
credit-differentiated activity in question.”—
In determining the nature and extent of “credit-differentiated activity” and the number of credits associated to it, the Secretary of State must consult the provider in question, higher education stakeholders, and other stakeholders to which the credit-differentiated activity relates to, for example, NHS Trusts or other representative bodies.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 9.

Question accordingly negatived.

Matt Western: I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 1, page 3, line 16, at end insert—
“(4A) Regulations
made under this paragraph must provide for the default number of
credits to be no more than 10
credits.”.
A probing amendment to ascertain the extent to which the Government is prepared to extend the lifelong learning entitlement to modules worth 10 credits.

Robert Syms: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 6, in clause 1, page 3, line 16, at end insert—
“(4A) Regulations
made under this paragraph must provide for the default number of
credits to be no more than 20
credits.”.
A probing amendment to ascertain the extent to which the Government is prepared to extend the lifelong learning entitlement to modules worth 20 credits.

Matt Western: It might be disappointing that my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown cannot be with us today, but it is probably in all our interests that he did not come in, given what he described to me earlier. However, he would have been keen to speak to amendment 2, tabled in his name. In particular, I think he would have had real validity in moving the amendment, given his personal expertise and experience of having delivered courses—that is why he believed that it was important to include the amendment in the Bill.
We are trying to understand the Government’s justification for choosing the minimum number of credits available, which they have set at 30. On the face of it,  30 may appear to be an arbitrary figure. The amendments are not intended to represent our specific view on whether the minimum should be 20 credits or 10 credits; they are very much intended to open a debate on the benefit of having smaller credit blocks available to learners and encourage a culture of bitesize learning.
In the evidence we had on Tuesday, Professor Edward Peck of Nottingham Trent University felt that the 30-credit minimum hit the balance between not overwhelming the Student Loans Company and meeting the needs of learning. On this side of the House, we want to ensure that the balance has been struck at the right point. I appreciatethat the Augar review recommended that the minimum should be set at 30 credits for much the same reasons given by Professor Peck who, of course, was on the panel working alongside Sir Philip Augar. I understand that position.
However, we have also received evidence that 30 credits may still be too high a minimum. For example, I was particularly struck by the view of ResPublica in its submitted written evidence, which expressed concern about the 30-credit minimum. It noted that
“the evidence strongly suggests that learners and employers value shorter courses, and would therefore advocate a 10 credit minimum threshold”,
which is the position that my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown wished to speak to.
Interestingly, as it happens, I think we can learn a lot from the Canadians, but the Canadian Government offer modular lifelong learning on a micro-credential level, offering 10-credit unit courses. Why are they able to set the minimum at a rate three times lower than  our minimum? Does the Minister think that the Student Loans Company would be really overstretched in delivering that, or are there other reasons?

Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend raises an important point. In this place, we often talk about the cost of learning as if the major cost to an employer is paying for the training. Of course, one of the other costs to an employer is the amount of time that an employee is out of the workplace in the learning institution. That is a very real consideration for many employers. For precisely that reason, a shorter-form commitment is often very attractive to employers, but it might enable their employee to develop skills that will either help them in their current job or help them into their next job. Particularly given that as a country, we are way below the OECD average in the amount that employers spend on training their staff, anything that can be done to make it more affordable for employers to let their employees have time away from work should be encouraged. Does my hon. Friend agree?

Matt Western: It may come as no surprise that I often do agree with my hon. Friend. He genuinely has insight into and expertise in this sector.
I have a particular concern from not only the evidence that we heard from Matthew Percival of the CBI but my anecdotal experience of talking to businesses in my constituency, the Federation of Small Businesses, the chamber of commerce and others. There is a desire to upskill and improve the training provided to employees, but small and medium-sized enterprises face a particular challenge in doing so. There is a barrier to their taking up opportunities because the size of the course, the commitment and the financial obligations are just too much.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield is right. I really believe there is an economic imperative for us to consider the idea behind the amendments, because it would be of huge value to drive the SME sector in particular. I am sure that you, Sir Robert, will be more aware than many of us of the importance of the  SME sectors in Italy and Germany—the Mittelstand in Germany—and of how the provision of training for their businesses is way ahead of what we are doing in the UK. I am not trying to be onerous or to make life difficult for the Government; I have a genuine intent to explore what could be done better to aid the hundreds of thousands of small businesses up and down the country that may—and I am sure do—want to give more training opportunities to their staff.
I appreciate that learners will be able to bundle multiple 10-credit courses, but they will still have to achieve the 30-credit minimum, which represents 300 hours of notional learning time. That is almost eight weeks of full-time study, which is where the issue lies. It is a huge commitment for an SME, which is why there is a huge economic opportunity in having smaller bite-sized blocks. Notwithstanding the point I made earlier about delivery through the Student Loans Company, greater flexibility is really important. At the end of the day this is about creating a flexible system; is the Government’s proposal as flexible as we would like it to be?
In the spirit of collaboration, let me ask the Minister some questions. What is his justification for choosing 30 credits as the minimum number available to users of LLE? Does he intend to lower the minimum number of credits as the system develops? Would he consider reviewing  that a year or two after start-up? Does he agree that setting the minimum at 30 credits might discourage people from pursuing modular lifelong study?

Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for moving the amendments. Let me respond first to how they are worded before I address the specific issue of the 30 credits. Amendments 2 and 6 have been worded to limit the default credit value to 10 and 20 credits respectively. I completely get that the intention is to probe the extent to which the Government are prepared to loan-fund modules of fewer than 30 credits under the LLE, but the amendments would not achieve that end because that is not what the default credit values in the Bill relate to.
It is worth clarifying the purpose of the default credit value: it is intended to allow fee limits to be set on full courses if they are not credit-bearing or the course is more suited to annual fee limits than credit-based fee limits. As mentioned, such courses may include some degree programmes at Oxford and Cambridge, and other courses such as nursing. For those types of courses, the fee limit will be calculated using a default number  of credits instead of any provider-assigned credits. The default values will be set at 120 credits a year for full-time courses, which aligns with the sector-recognised standard number of credits in a full year.
The default credit values are there to provide a credit value for non-credit-bearing full courses only. They will not apply to modules. As all modules under the LLE will be credit bearing, modules will always have the fee limit calculated using the actual provider-assigned number of credits, not a default number of credits.
The Government have been clear that the modules must have a minimum size of 30 credits for funding purposes. We believe this is a suitable level to attract fees and maintenance loans as it represents a substantial-enough package of learning. It is based on significant consultation with stakeholders and is much smaller and more flexible for training, retraining and upskilling opportunities than the current one-academic-year minimum-size offer.
As mentioned, modules of a smaller size can also be funded—provided that they are bundled together in a single entry from a parent course to meet the 30 credits—to allow sufficient flexibility for retraining purposes. This will mean that funding will be available for a 20-credit module and a 10-credit module of the same course combined.
The hon. Gentleman cited the Augar report. Philip Augar is the key architect of this reform, alongside the former shadow spokesman for skills and universities, Gordon Marsden, who often spoke about lifelong learning. The Augar report is clear that a 30-hour credit represents a
“a significant amount of teaching and learning, and is an appropriate minimum for upskilling or reskilling.”

Toby Perkins: Will the Minister clarify for the Committee and for others listening to our proceedings how much loan a student who took on 30 credits would need?

Robert Halfon: Under the current loan system, the loan would be divided up in proportion to the 30 credits that the student was taking. It would depend on whether the credit is charged at £77 or £60, which would depend  on whether the provider had a teaching excellence framework or an access and participation plan. If the credit was charged at £77, it would be £77 times the  30 credits. It would then be up to the student to decide whether they wanted to do the course.
To return to amendment 2, to cap all default values at 10 credits would make them unfit for purpose, as a full-time year is 120 credits. With that in mind, the Government cannot support the amendment.

Matt Western: I hear what the Minister says but am disappointed. I would have liked him to say that, within a year or two of the scheme being in operation, this idea might be up for review. We do buy into lifelong learning, and the Minister is right in what he says about Gordon Marsden, a former colleague, and the work done by the Augar review. However, although the intent is right, we need to consider the delivery and maximising the opportunity, which is why we think there is a real opportunity for the Government, at a certain point, to review the merit in lowering the default so that the minimum is not 30 bundled credits.
There is a huge need to address this country’s training and skills gap, and particularly to be more supportive of small businesses such as those represented by the Federation of Small Businesses, to help them with the training of their staff. We will not push the amendment to a vote, but I ask the Minister to reflect further. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Matt Western: I beg to move amendment 11, in clause 1, page 3, line 18, at end insert—
“(6)
In determining the maximum number of credits for a course year, the
Secretary of State
must—
(a) have regard to the impact on the variety of courses on offer from providers,
(b) prepare and publish an equality impact assessment, and
(c) have regard to the impact on student numbers.”
This amendment would ensure that in setting the maximum cap of credits per course year, the Secretary of State takes a variety of steps to ensure there are no unintended consequences of setting the cap at a certain level.
The amendment relates to maximum credit cap considerations and aims to ensure that the Secretary of State has regard to the wide variety of courses on offer, the impact on student numbers and the need to publish an equality impact assessment when determining the maximum number of credits for a course year. I will take each of those in turn.
The paragraph on the impact on the variety of courses on offer will ensure that when the Secretary of State decides on the maximum number of credits for a course year, they do so in a way that does not unintentionally choke off the provision of certain courses that do not fit the traditional 120-credit structure. I am thinking mainly of accelerated degrees, which often equate to 180 credits and require the learner to spend more notional learning time to complete their degree in just two years instead of three.
As I have said, the uptake of accelerated degrees has perhaps not been as high as desired or met the Government’s ambition. That is not to say that the offer of accelerated degrees does not have potential, but it has certainly not   been as successful as we or the Government would have hoped. For such degrees, a fee capped at a maximum of 120 credits a year would make it financially unsustainable for providers to continue to run courses and they would no longer be offered.
Not a huge number of people have taken up accelerated degrees. Perhaps the Minister has better data than I do, but I think that, nationally, we are in the five digits—maybe the 10,000s or 12,000s. It is not a great number, but it is a good and important offer that perhaps requires further development. It works for a particular population of students who, depending on their personal circumstances, or perhaps their employer, see the advantage of getting through a degree in a shorter period.
If the Secretary of State was required to have regard to the need to protect provision, it would prevent any unintended consequences from arising from ministerial decision making. That is another good reason why we think consultation is so important; I refer back to my previous amendments, which related to involving stakeholders across the piece in the process.
On the point about publishing an equality and impact assessment, if the setting of the maximum number of credits for a course year were to have an impact on the provision and availability of courses, that in turn would inevitably have an impact on student choice. That is a concern, and we absolutely want to ensure that it does not happen.
Students are not as homogenous a group as they are sometimes portrayed; people arrive into education at all stages of life, with different demands and different needs. We need to ensure that there are no barriers to their pursuing higher education as they need and wish to, whether that is for their careers or because their life circumstances have changed.

Andy McDonald: My hon. Friend is making an important point about the lifetime nature of study. There is some confusion: I do not know whether he can assist me on this, but apparently the loans will be made available up to the age of 60. That is revealed in the consultation. On the same page, however, it also states that a reduced rate maintenance loan will continue to be available for those over 60. Does that mean that over-60s can continue to receive the funding, or is it only for those who started before the age of 60? I am somewhat confused. Can my hon. Friend clarify? Perhaps the Minister will when he sums up.

Matt Western: My hon. Friend makes an important and pressing point, which is perhaps more pressing to certain of us than others—

Andy McDonald: Well, I might have a future career ahead of me!

Matt Western: In all seriousness, the issue was discussed at the evidence sessions on Tuesday and there seems to be an anomaly. I am sure that the Minister will want to address that.
Listening to the witnesses the other day, I think there was some concession. If we have rising pension thresholds and we want to re-involve a sector of our population  that has withdrawn from employment and the economy —we heard in the last few days about the Government’s intention regarding returnerships—people need to be able to access this provision; I am also thinking of the WASPI women. People suddenly find that they do not have the incomes they need to sustain themselves. The sorts of work they previously were involved in might no longer be open to them, and they might need to retrain. Age 60 is an arbitrary guillotine, and it is not necessarily appropriate. I very much hope that the Minister will clarify the issue for my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough and the rest of us. Perhaps he might reflect on the economic needs, as well as the social needs, that such a change would meet.
It is important that Ministers should be confident that there will be no disproportionate effect on certain groups of students, some of whom we have mentioned, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am thinking in particular of those mentioned in the evidence sessions—those with particular responsibilities, financial challenges, social and domestic challenges, caring responsibilities and so on. In the evidence sessions, I was pleased to hear from Professor Sue Rigby from Bath Spa University, who endorses the plan to ensure a risk analysis of the unintended consequences for students.
Finally, I believe there is a need to have regard for the impact on student numbers. I was intrigued to hear the suggestion from Sir Philip Augar, whom I respect greatly. He suggested that, with a declining population rate, “forward-thinking institutions” may see this route as a viable one to attract more students. A pessimist might say that, given a declining post-18 population rate post 2030, some institutions may see this route as a way to boost their declining student numbers. Although it might seem like a problem for the future, that future does not seem that far away—particularly in terms of electoral cycles. It might not be a problem that we envisage in the immediate short term, but modular study surely should not be seen simply as an avenue through which providers can boost student numbers, being purely driven by their own financial interests.
Sir David Bell of the University of Sunderland raised the prospect of the learner being overwhelmed by choice and he has a very real point. The choice on offer should always be a choice in the learner’s interest, and the Secretary of State would be wise to have due regard for how student numbers might be impacted in setting the maximum number of credits.
Amendment 11 seeks to avoid the unintended consequences of the 120 limit, which is a particular issue for accelerated learning courses, which give an offer to a particular population for whom getting through a qualification in a shorter period of time is really vital, or perhaps vital for the organisation that employs them. That is why we think amendment 11 should be accepted.

Robert Halfon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his amendment. On his question about the maintenance loan, I confirm that the LLE tuition loans will be available up to the age of 60. We believe that is fair to students and fair to the taxpayer. Currently, just over 3,000 people—from memory, it might be 3,500 people—aged 60 take up student loans. However, learners near retirement or in retirement are likely to repay a very small proportion of their loan and their maintenance support will be subject to taper from the age of 60. I  think that is what the statement refers to, but of course I am happy to write to the hon. Gentleman with clarification if he would like.
I can confirm that the setting of the maximum credits per course year will be based on robust analysis of any impact on learners and providers. More importantly, I can confirm that there is absolutely an opportunity for the sector to provide feedback on the proposed maximum values before regulations are laid. I can also give the assurance that regulations on maximum credits will have to follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so that Parliament will always get the chance to debate and approve formally any maximum credit values before the law is made or changed.
The regulations will cap the number of credits that providers can charge for within a given course year and for the course overall. That is to prevent providers from adding unnecessary credits to courses in order to raise tuition fees. The cap ensures value for money for the student and the taxpayer. The fee limits will remain aligned with the current rates, based on standard practice. A certificate of higher education will be capped at 120 credits; a diploma of higher education will be capped at 240 credits.
Regarding the hon. Gentleman’s point about the accelerated degrees, we intend all courses offered under LLE to be used under the credit-based method. That includes accelerated courses. The limit on credits will be set at 180 a year. Providers can offer more credits than the maximum, but cannot charge for them. That is in line with the current system, where providers offering the usual number of credits have the same annual fee limit as those offering more for the same type of qualification.
The Government are already factoring in the impact of these reforms on students and providers. That is why we resist the amendment.

Matt Western: I appreciate what the Minister says. It is encouraging to hear that those learners and the accelerated courses will be protected. However, we would like this amendment to be incorporated into the Bill, so we will put it to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 8.

Question accordingly negatived.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Joy Morrissey.)

Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock.